Welcome & Introductions
[0:00] Simmi: Thank you for joining us today, morning. I am Simi Dixit, and I'm being joined this morning with, uh, by Peter Hogg. Quick housekeeping before we get into it. Um, we will be spending the next forty-five minutes together wherein Peter and I will talk about three fundamental shifts that are happening in workforce and talent decisions.
[0:25] Simmi: Um, please drop in your questions into the Q&A box as we go, and we will keep some time in the end to, uh, pick those up and answer them. And also, if you would like a follow-up note, uh, with the highlights, please check the box when you, um, in the registration confirmation, so we can reach out to you. Okay, great.
[0:50] Simmi: So let me start by introducing myself, um, and then I'll hand it over to Peter to do the same. I'm Simi Dixit. I've spent over twenty years, um, in Middle East shaping how organization think about their people. I've designed reward frameworks in PwC and Aon Hewitt as an HR consultant, and then I built the people analytics function at Majid Al Futtaim.
[1:18] Simmi: And finally, uh, my last stint, uh, was with Schneider Electric leading their HR strategy. So it, I, I, I would say it with proud that I have been in re- a part of region's most complex workforce decisions. And today I'm setting up my own practice, uh, which is built on all of this experience, uh, directly sending, uh, giving it to the leaders who need it most.
[1:44] Simmi: Uh, over to you, Peter, if you'd like to introduce yourself.
[1:48] Peter: Yeah. Thanks, Simmi. Um, and look, best of luck with your new venture. I'm sure it'll be brilliant. Uh, Simmi and I worked together at Schneider Electric for, uh, for two years I think, maybe a little bit more. Um, but continue to be very good friends and to collaborate closely together.
[2:01] Peter: So thank you, Simmi, for the opportunity to do the webinar with you today. This is a first time for me, so, uh, who, who knows? Uh, let's see how it goes. And thank you to those of you who are joining. So, uh, my name's Peter Hogg. Um, I've been in talent acquisition for 21 years, uh, starting in the UK in agency recruitment.
[2:19] Peter: Um, and uh, in 2014, I joined Schneider Electric, where we built talent acquisition from the ground up, which is something I really enjoyed doing. Um, and after a period of doing that in the UK, um, it was time for something new, and they were very generous in offering me, uh, the role to lead Middle East Africa talent acquisition, uh, based out of Dubai.
[2:39] Peter: So my family and I, uh, uprooted from the UK. Uh, hadn't anticipated an expat life, quite frankly, but uprooted from the UK. We have five boys. They were young at the time. Uh, when we moved here, the youngest was 2, I think, and the oldest was 10. So, uh, we moved here with young children. Um, the oldest is now 17, right?
[2:59] Peter: So they've lived their life here. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. Time flies, right? Uh, so they've lived their life here in the UAE. Um, why, I guess why did we come, right? Um, we came partly because it was time for a new opportunity, and Schneider, um, offered that opportunity to me. Um, and I'm grateful to them for that.
[3:19] Peter: That's their culture. That's what they can do. Um. But also, I guess, you know, we left the UK in search for something better, you know? Um, the prospect of a better life. That's why people come here, right? Um, you know, great schools, secure, um, great quality of life, great diversity, um, great part of the world, right?
[3:38] Peter: Uh, um, you know, from a comparison to the UK, relatively good weather, right? So, um, so that's why we came, why we stayed. Um, so it's been good. Yeah. And I think, Simi, we're not on our own, right? You know, if you look even over the last year or so, the UK's losing a lot of high net worth individuals to the UAE.
[3:57] Peter: There's still a net outflow to the UAE.
[3:59] Simmi: Yeah. I think it's definitely a great country to be in. I personally myself have spent 16 years here. Uh, so Peter, before we get into it,
GCC Market Outlook: Confidence & Resilience Post-Conflict
[4:09] Simmi: what's your outlook on the region now? Um, you know, with everything that happened past few months, uh, lot of things have changed, international media is talking a lot.
[4:22] Simmi: Where... and also you being part of a regional conglomerate, speaking to candidates, what is your view of the country and the place now?
[4:33] Peter: TA, thank you. TA's a fascinating place to be, isn't it, at a time like this because, you know, we have been working with candidates and filling roles all the way, um, up until the conflict happened in, in, what, the last day of February.
[4:45] Peter: We had candidates who we had arriving from other countries who'd given up everything or, you know, who'd kind of sold up where they were to come and invest in the UAE. Um, and those who were early in the process who maybe were receiving offers and considering whether they wanted to accept them.
[5:02] Peter: Um, look, I'm super optimistic about the region. Uh, yes, we've had a bump in the road with the conflict. Um, but we had a bump in the road with COVID, and there's been bumps in the road with recessions in this region and other events. This region is well managed. It's well led. Um, it's resilient.
[5:20] Peter: It's built not for today or tomorrow, but with a future outlook. And honestly, this region will be absolutely fine. It, um, it sometimes gets bad press. It's convenient for other places, other territories to, um, to point the finger at the UAE and maybe even try and tear it down.
[5:40] Peter: I don't buy it. Um, I live here. Uh, I feel secure. I see a future here. I see resilience. I see rebound. So yeah, I'm very buoyant.
[5:52] Simmi: That's great. In fact, Peter, what you are saying is also reflecting in what's happening in the market. As regional tensions had escalated, hiring had contracted in March, but now what we are seeing is, uh, it's rebounded back.
[6:10] Simmi: In fact, the employer activity is back by almost 80% into the market. Uh, Ernst & Young did a GCC pulse survey post-conflict, and 90% of the businesses were confident in business continuity. So yes, the investments are frozen, and they are at a standby, but nobody is retreating from the region.
[6:35] Simmi: Everybody believes in the region. I mean, and businesses are still here, which I think is definitely a strong signal wherein, um, UAE government is doing a lot as well. Um, UAE recently, post-conflict, liberalized its investor visa rules and consolidated everything under a single digital portal.
[7:02] Simmi: Now, that's a big step. That's a big step for a government to show that they're not worried about the future. They are expanding their residency. I mean, the word that I'm reading in different market reports is disciplined optimism. So confidence is the trajectory, and sharper eye for value is what we look for here.
[7:28] Peter: And I think we see the news as well about the Dubai government with their aspiration to become 50% agentic, right? You know, that's not about um, cutting people and humans out of the economy. It's about looking forward with, you know, a sense of reality. This is where the world's going, and this is gonna create more efficiency, and it's gonna create a better life.
[7:45] Peter: How do we fit in? That's for us to work out, right?
[7:48] Simmi: Yeah. Okay. So that's great. That's good for a context for our discussion, Peter. Uh, let's get into our first shift for the day. The first discussion that we're gonna have for next 10 minutes is, uh, what's happening in the market. How is the market, you know?
[8:07] Simmi: It's not only people inside the country, but outside the country are very curious about it. So the shift that we are calling it is
Shift 1: From Volume Hiring to Precision Hiring
[8:16] Simmi: from volume hiring to precision hiring. I believe that, um, the biggest operational shift that's happening is that the annual cycles are collapsing because market is changing at a very rapid pace.
[8:33] Simmi: Business priorities, capability needs, and for some sectors, even the cost optimization is taking over the plannings that used to happen. Everything has to happen, uh, you know... We have a lot of contradictory agendas, Peter, I feel. We have to accelerate AI adoption. We also have to improve productivity, increase localization, but at the same time, costs can't increase.
[8:59] Simmi: Businesses are at a position after the conflict where they are still seeing how much, you know, still absorbing the loss probably. So going back to my question, how is the market?
[9:13] Peter: Look, I think, um, in my experience in the organizations that I've been working with and, you know, I've...
[9:18] Peter: In my most recent organization, of course, saw this conflict. In my previous organization saw COVID, right? Look, a couple of threads which I think are not unique, and that is that, of course, a business must have a plan. Um, an annual plan, a five-year plan, whatever, and that might include growth, it might include efficiency, it might include, um, maybe moving into new sectors or ramping up skills.
[9:42] Peter: That plan is still needed. But more and more we need a kind of plan B and plan C, right, which is the kind of agility overlay, and we see that. And as I sit in, you know, in leadership teams and boardrooms, that's what you see taking up people's time, right? Okay, so we know what the general direction is, we know what the strategy is, and I guess we're true to that, but actually operationally, and even strategically today, you know, what is the pivot?
[10:09] Peter: And what does that mean for our business? How do we protect our business? And by protecting our business, how do we protect our people? And I think key is how businesses communicate that, right? That protecting the business is not about, you know, the business looking inward and almost being selfish, but by protecting the business, we protect our people.
[10:28] Peter: And I think businesses can be smart about how they communicate that, right? Sometimes they perhaps miss that connection, even if that connection's there. Um, it's something which, you know, you and I were together at COVID, during COVID at Schneider. I think it's something Schneider did very well.
[10:43] Simmi: Yeah. No, and, and, and Peter, I'm sure all of this change from a business perspective is having an impact on the hires that are coming out.
[10:51] Simmi: Do you think the quality of hires is changing, or the key metrics that used to be tracked, uh, during hiring is changing?
[11:01] Peter: Look, I think, um, some things that are happening in the market, right? So if you... and there's a lot of debate about this, but, you know, I'll share with you my view. Um, what are the drivers for people to, um, to move in their career, right?
[11:15] Peter: Of course, a lot can be said about compensation. Um, and I think, you know, you and I could Google or go onto, you know, onto ChatGPT or choose your AI tool and find a survey which frankly will confirm whatever your suspicion is, right? There's lots of different surveys out there.
[11:36] Peter: This is my view. Compensation is always key. Um,
[11:40] Simmi: Yes...
[11:40] Peter: uh, in this region...
[11:41] Simmi: And I have written on compensation.
[11:43] Peter: Yes, and that's your expertise, right? Compensation is always key. It'll always be key, particularly for expats who are here probably with some sort of compensation mindset, right, here to invest and grow and, uh, hopefully leave here richer than they came, right?
[11:57] Peter: So compensation will always be key. We've seen, I think, a flattening of the curve in compensation, um, because this region's become particularly attractive because of the good work the government is doing here. And I speak, I'm speaking specifically about the UAE, but we could look at other GCC countries, right?
[12:14] Peter: So this place is becoming more attractive because of what's happening here. It's also becoming more attractive geopolitically because of what's happening elsewhere, right? And look at what's happening in Europe. Look, speak Europe more broadly, uh, the UK, uh, specifically. It's where I'm from, right?
[12:30] Peter: So there's kind of two key reasons why this region becomes more attractive. Now, so compensation is key, but particularly in a time of distress, be that a conflict, be that a pandemic or whatever, we do see real currency in, uh, wellbeing, right? Flexibility, for example, um, and other kind of human-centered kind of value propositions, right, which really show loyalty, um, and allow people to bring their best self to work.
[13:00] Peter: We shouldn't underestimate that. Now, the people I speak to, and I'll say anecdotally, candidates, but also my friends and colleagues, um, from different businesses, you really get a sense at times like this for how they do or do not feel valued, and it's not about the money. It's about other things, right?
[13:17] Peter: Um, it's about the ability for them to put their wellbeing first, um, and good people will always do right by the company. That's something we need to remember, I think.
[13:27] Simmi: Yes, yes. In fact, on the compensation bit, if I have to add my two bits, um, lot of work that I'm getting currently as part of my new venture is around fixing the structural issues of workforce architecture, because lot of organizations are trying to get these new capabilities, the new skills, um, into the legacy grading structures. And that's also where the region will mature up, I feel, in the next one or two years quite a bit.
[14:00] Simmi: Wherein we HR leaders and our business leaders will start understanding, you know, your AI ethics lead, which is a new job you just added, does not have a job family. Uh, you've not, you've never added it as a job family. Or you don't have a salary band for your prompt engineering function. Um, and so rather than an ad hoc reaction of improvising or overpaying based on because we want to get people, it's good to get the structure fixed and then not force the role into a box that does not exist.
[14:36] Simmi: So Peter, I would say that it's good the region is versatile, the region is adapting, but yes, we have to also adapt at the structural level, wherein, you know, precision hiring, as we say, uh, based on capability can be more organically absorbed in the organizations. Um, and of course the volume models, the head count plans that we used to talk about are going out of the window. So
[15:06] Peter: Look, um,
[15:07] Simmi: Yeah, sorry. No, go ahead. Maybe Peter, yeah. No, no, just your last few words on how the skill-based hiring is taking over.
[15:15] Peter: Look, I think the work that you're doing with your customers is super important, right? I think at times when people are looking at, um, cost savings and efficiencies, we can sometimes put this stuff into the sort of soft HR category, um, the nice to have category.
[15:29] Peter: At your peril would be my advice, right? This is super, super important. When we think about how we structure our skills architecture in organizations so that we can, A, be agile for the new roles coming in, and there are many. Even just in TA, which is my world, there are new roles coming in which we didn't have before, right?
[15:47] Peter: You know, AI auditors, for example. Since when was that a skill set of TA? Um, and where does that sit and how is it compensated and what background and skills does that person have, because they haven't been doing it for the last five years, right? Um, so that kind of architecture becomes very, very important.
[16:02] Peter: But also, um, we talk about this precision hiring. Um, skills-based hiring is now super, super important, and it's a complete shift in the way, A, that we, the recruiter, goes to market and hires. Uh, B, the way the company structures these people and skills into the organization. But perhaps most fundamentally and most difficult, and the most difficult thing is how the business prepares itself to receive these people.
[16:29] Peter: Um, for example, you know, you could potentially recruit someone who doesn't come from the pedigree or background that the rest of your team come from. They just don't. They come from somewhere completely different, but bring the right skills. Um, and with a very objective approach, that can be super valuable.
[16:47] Peter: But it's not kind of as easy...
[16:50] Simmi: CV is becoming more a lagging indicator than the importance it used to have, right? Good. So Peter, you touched upon AI. I think that's our next theme that we want to talk about. So let me move to the second shift, or the second topic for today's discussion.
Shift 2: AI as Both Recruiter and Candidate
[17:09] Simmi: AI is now both the recruiter and the candidate in hiring. We have AI hiring for us, and we have candidates using AI, and also we have AI being hired. So let's go a bit deeper on this, uh, Peter. What do you think the structural shift that's happening, um, in this regard?
[17:39] Peter: Let's go more deep. And hopefully this answers your question, Sumi, but I'll give you an example, right? I recently spoke to a recruiter on my own behalf, okay? So I, uh, I was, um, considering or being considered by an organization and, uh, had a very early stage conversation with one of their recruiters who I hope isn't listening right now, although she was wonderful.
[17:57] Peter: Um, and she said, uh, that there are 300 applicants and she intends to review each of them, um, all of them, um, and at some point she'll get back to me, right? Um, Wow. Uh, now the 300 applicants comes as no surprise, uh, in talent acquisition these days. A percentage of them may have even been bots, who knows, right?
[18:14] Peter: Uh, there's stats out there that say that 16% of applicants these days are agents or AI. Um, nonetheless, I couldn't help but think of that recruiter, wow, you know. I mean, the sort of teams that I manage and the sort of teams that I aspire to manage, um, couldn't answer the question in that way, right?
[18:32] Peter: Mm-hmm. Really. And candidates need to be prepared for the fact that the funnel, at least the top of the funnel, is these days highly automated, or should be. Um, and that, of course brings tons of efficiency. It also brings objectivity. Um, it brings speed for the candidate, and actually it can bring better quality feedback than they previously experienced early in the process.
[18:53] Peter: So, you know, I think that's really positive for candidates. Absolutely. And if you think about the journey, right, you know, and in the team which I've been managing, um, the job advert will be created by AI. Um, the candidate will then apply. They'll be stack ranked by AI.
[19:11] Peter: Exactly. They'll then maybe do a video interview. The video interview will be assessed by AI, right? Um, and then maybe there'll be some questions, um, which will be proposed for an interview. They will be generated by AI. Um, so candidates need to ask themselves the question, how do they feel about that?
[19:30] Peter: Um, and if they don't feel good about it, they need to really look into it and research it, right? So that's the one side of the equation. The other side of the equation, of course, is that we as recruiters are seeing more and more work done by AI, right? The presentations they bring to interviews... I mean, I've seen some terrible ones, honestly.
[19:45] Peter: The presentations they bring to the interviews obviously generated by ChatGPT, obviously, right? And not, and pretty poorly done. So the CVs we read over-sanitized, um, with certain aspects of skills overemphasized. Um, and so we need... It's like
[20:00] Simmi: AI hiding AI.
[20:03] Peter: So we need to think as recruiters, how do we see through that?
[20:05] Peter: And maybe we use AI to see through it, but, um, it changes the game, right? It's something we need to be cognizant of.
[20:12] Simmi: Yeah. No, very true. In fact, I have an interesting perspective here. Um, I am personally very interested in future of work, so I had the opportunity to attend a Singularity University event.
[20:27] Simmi: Um, and I heard Gary Bolles, who heads the Future of Work at Singularity University, and the idea that he spoke about has stuck to me, and I think it kind of cleared up a lot of doubts that come, you know, when people come and ask you, "Is AI gonna replace jobs?"
[20:53] Simmi: So there are two ideas, uh, Peter, that we always discuss, you know, let's say two poles. There is that future of work is actually gonna create world of abundance. There are new jobs coming, and hence new roles are being created, and actually it's good for human potential. You know, we are evolving.
[21:13] Simmi: But then there is another view, which is technology view. Let's say Ray Kurzweil view, which has been long argued that AI will automate and replace a lot of existing jobs and, you know, people will have to reskill and a lot of jobs won't exist.
[21:33] Simmi: Now, these are two contrary poles, but what interesting thing that Gary argued in his session was why can't both of them coexist? Why cannot it happen that the jobs will get redesigned? Yes, there will be few jobs that go away, but there are some basic skills, um, that will still be needed in the workforce which human beings bring for us, right?
[22:01] Simmi: Adaptability, creativity, empathy, problem-solving. They exist, and in fact to you, Peter, my question would be from a hiring perspective, as much as the hiring process steps you mentioned are being taken over by AI, I still think they cannot assess the human being in the room, the leadership potential.
[22:24] Simmi: I think we still need, you know, an energy working in the room before any of the important hirings happen. Would you think that's true or am I being very optimistic here?
[22:39] Peter: Look, I'll give you two sides to that argument, right? On the one hand, I would say if anyone asked me I would say trust the science.
[22:46] Peter: Okay? Um, and we could be talking about assessment, we could talk psychometrics, cognitive, behavioral assessment, whatever, right? Um, we could be talking about the benefit of AI which of course is looking over a large data set, be it from an industry level or company level, whatever, right? Um, so I think it's wise, uh, particularly at the top of the funnel or sort of down to the mid-funnel really to trust the science.
[23:09] Peter: That would be my advice. Yeah. True. And with the way AI is impacting every aspect of the workforce and the recruitment process these days, I think we need to have some science in the process, right. Um, and
[23:23] Simmi: I mean, if you have 300 candidates in your story, then please use the science.
[23:28] Peter: Indeed. And you know what? For many of us, 300 is nothing, right? I mean, you know, there are many of us who are opening vacancies, we can see 1,000 applicants overnight. Um, so we need the science, and we need to be able to trust the science, and we hope that the science will give everyone, the hiring manager, the candidate, everyone, hopefully a better experience, you know?
[23:47] Peter: Um, but on the other hand, you know, towards that lower part of the funnel, absolutely we need to use human judgment, um, and we need to collaborate, you know, across interview panels, right? And we need to look at, um, workforce scenarios where we actually see them in action. Um, which might be considered sort of the older, more traditional way, but it's still required I think to understand that cultural fit, that leadership potential, uh, resilience, empathy, all that stuff, right?
[24:16] Peter: Um, which can't be faked, um, in those difficult scenarios. And we've got to make sure we continue to bake that into our process for sure. But back to one of your earlier points, Simmy, um, there's an interesting report, the Global Talent Trends Report by Mercer, which has come out this year.
[24:33] Peter: Um, and the number one priority for business leaders in that report, and there are 12,000 respondents to that report, so it's a global data set, a good data set, is redesigning, um, work to incorporating AI and automation. So that is what our business leaders are focused on.
[24:50] Peter: It's the right thing. It's kind of having a proactive handshake with AI to say that, you know, we embrace AI, but how do we drive AI? How do we coexist with AI? How do we optimize AI, right, as humans? So I think that's the right approach done right. Um, and HR, you know, they...
[25:10] Peter: the survey looks at what top priorities HR have to complement that. In fact, their top priority, um, I'll maybe come back to that later in the discussion, but their number two priority is designing talent processes around skills. Because of course where we have these frameworks around AI and skills architecture, we need of course then to look at how we adopt that or how we overlay that with the talent themselves, right?
[25:39] Simmi: Yes. Yes. No, um, a very interesting view, uh, Peter. Let's look at the other side. AI is also the candidate now. Uh, G42 here in Abu Dhabi has publicly announced that AI agents are gonna be recruited into enterprise roles. In fact, I was speaking to one of the organizations last month, and they have restructured their entire customer service function, which was a 40 people function, and now it has only 12 humans, and the rest of it is being handled by AI.
[26:16] Simmi: So the 12 who stayed are the people who are handling escalations, exceptions, the relationship work. And AI is doing all the repetitive, the cross policy reading, the work wherein you're just answering questions. So I think this is the other side of it, um, which organizations and HR leaders have to be cognizant of and see how it fits in, as you were saying, into their priorities.
[26:53] Peter: I think quality is key, right? You know, we've had similar debates if you go back 20 years about offshoring and outsourcing, right? And how does that impact quality? Well, now we're offshoring outsourcing to AI. Um, the argument is similar. How do you set that entity up for success, um, and how do you audit and monitor that, right?
[27:11] Peter: Um, you know, and speaking as the customer, you know, and you've had these experiences too, uh, Simmy, with, you know, your mobile phone provider or, you know, whoever it is you might be dealing with. Sometimes you know, a bot or an AI is super helpful, super efficient and you wouldn't have it any other way.
[27:26] Peter: Sometimes you just wanna... You know, I mean, unfortunately I don't have any hair, um, but you just wanna pull your hair out, right? So I think we as enterprises and businesses need to be very cognizant as to where our customers stand in that kind of user experience, right?
[27:41] Peter: Very important.
[27:42] Simmi: Yes. Yes. Well, great. I will conclude this section as well, um, to stay on time. Um, my biggest learning from Peter, everything you've said and we discussed, um, don't measure AI investment from how many CVs are being screened. Measure it as to how much, uh, honest you have, you know, communicated.
[28:06] Simmi: Measure it as per your priorities from HR and um, your time to offer for your critical roles. Yeah. And the AI strategy is a reality and it has to be part of HR strategy going forward. Great.
[28:23] Peter: Okay.
[28:25] Simmi: Okay, Peter, if, if you're up to it, just for a change of format, I... We can do a quick rapid fire round wherein I'll ask you a few questions, and you answer in as many few words or sentences you can, and I hope it's interesting for the audience.
[28:45] Simmi: Um, I've still not looked at your comments — I can see a lot of comments coming in. We will look at them maybe in another five minutes. But, um, let's do this, uh, to make it more interesting and also to be able to cover some parts. Okay? Peter, all set? Should we do it?
[29:02] Peter: I'm, I'm
Rapid Fire Round with Peter Hogg
[29:03] Peter: I'm nervous. Please be kind
[29:07] Simmi: to me. Okay, go ahead. Don't worry, don't worry. I will, uh, we will have the audience fill in the answers then. Okay. Let's go. It's everything we have discussed till now. So first one, any single news story that comes to your mind that actually moved the GCC hiring market in last 60 days?
[29:27] Peter: Look, um, I think anything that shows confidence in the region and the business and the region ready to rebound, right? One good example is the April investor visa expansion that we saw. Yes. I think that's just one example, right. Um, anyway, I'm supposed to... This is supposed to be rapid fire, so I won't go into it.
[29:43] Peter: Investor visa is my answer. Um,
[29:44] Simmi: Okay let's go. Let's go, that's
[29:44] Peter: my answer. Um,
[29:45] Simmi: what is the most, uh, most asked question to you? What, you know, from candidates. What are the candidates — now, uh, everything I ask is like in, in
[29:56] Peter: with the new post-conflict... Well, I'll give two answers. In, in the immediate post-conflict, is, is can I still, and should I still come?
[30:01] Peter: Um, and in negotiations. Oh, for the most part, most of the candidates I dealt with were prepared and are prepared to come. Um, and I guess the other one is, you know, what does the next three years look like? Um, and I speak specifically to AI, you know. What's the AI play on my role in three years?
[30:17] Peter: Yeah.
[30:19] Simmi: What are the most requests, uh, for roles that are being hired in this month? Which kind of roles are being still hired when we know there are hiring freezes that have happened...
[30:31] Peter: it's gonna sound a little bit cliche, but there's only one word and that's amortization. You know, we're, we're, uh, you know, 11 days off the H1 deadline amortization.
[30:41] Simmi: Wow, okay.
[30:42] Peter: And that's our... We could spend the whole time talking about that, but that's not what we're here for.
[30:44] Simmi: Yes. And we, and that's our next topic. I mean, we'll spend five minutes on it as well before we end. Mm, the role that nobody's asking about anymore, and probably it's gonna be going out of the headcount numbers very soon.
[30:59] Peter: Look
[31:00] Simmi: Sorry guys — Coordinator — if anybody's on the call.
[31:03] Peter: I'm sure we could think of many, right? But
[31:05] Simmi: Yeah...
[31:05] Peter: coordinators and administrators, right? Um, these roles are becoming more and more AI'd and, uh, we... and we've already passed the days of, you know, shop assistants and things like that, which are being dealt with by, you know, um, kiosks and things, but that's five years ago.
[31:23] Peter: Today it's the coordinators and administrators now, I think.
[31:25] Simmi: Yes. Yes. Fair enough. Biggest myth about GCC market right now, and you can answer that from UK perspective, international perspective.
[31:39] Peter: I, I think it's convenient for foreign media, including the UK, to diminish the UAE's ability to rebound and its resilience.
[31:50] Peter: Um, they have no idea what good leadership looks like. Um, here we benefit from that daily and that's not well understood elsewhere.
[31:58] Simmi: Yes, yes. Final question. You've done very well, Peter. What's your prediction for next six months? And I'm sure everybody's very interested to hear that.
[32:08] Peter: Look, in terms of, um, in terms of, you know, sectors, for example, which are gonna perhaps surprise people, I think real estate.
[32:16] Peter: Um, yes, I know, there's been a very hot real estate market here. It, there's two sides, right? The investors don't wanna see it diminish. Anyone looking to buy or rent is hoping it's gonna have a slowdown. I think we're gonna see real estate continue to be buoyant, and I think big and major projects you're gonna see more and more of them getting signed off.
[32:39] Peter: That's my expectation.
[32:40] Simmi: Getting back in, yeah. Getting back in action. Perfect. Thank you, Peter. We are running out of time. We have 10 minutes to go before ending the session, um, and I want to keep few minutes for the question answer. So let's do
Shift 3: Localization as Workforce Strategy
[32:53] Simmi: our third theme for the day, the shift that's happening, which is localization.
[32:58] Simmi: Um, I guess when you and I entered the region, you entered seven years back, I came here 16 years back, um, I always saw localization as a compliance, but I feel the shift that's happening is that it's becoming a workforce strategy. It's no longer about just getting the numbers fulfilled, but it's actually about the talent management and managing it in a way that it serves the business.
[33:28] Simmi: So, yeah. Here — Okay — go ahead, Peter.
[33:32] Peter: A couple of points on this, right? Yes, those of us on the mainland, so to speak, will have aggressive targets when it comes to if we're speaking specifically about Emiratization. Um, and very difficult targets and they, of course, come with heavy penalties if you don't hit those targets, right?
[33:48] Peter: So that becomes an industry in itself for organizations to source and fundamentally attract, um, and retain that talent. Okay. So that is a function in and of itself for organizations in this region that needs to be taken very, very seriously. More broadly than that, and at the risk of sounding slightly overly sycophantic here, this is a classic diversity story, right?
[34:14] Peter: Organizations need to reflect the context and the culture in which they reside. Um, and our organizations here need to reflect the Emirati communities that they serve, and that means having the right proportion of Emiratis within the organization. Again, it's a diversity play. We could have the same conversation about different nationalities and cultures.
[34:36] Peter: We could have the same conversation about different age ranges and profiles. We could have the same conversation about gender, right? It's a diverse companies are more successful, and companies that fit within their context are more successful. I'll give you another example again. I don't know if this is a good one, but we recently have seen a lot more demand for Chinese talent in this region.
[35:00] Peter: Why? Because there's more Chinese investment, there's a greater Chinese population. Uh, the typical Chinese person may have more money in their pocket as their economy grows, right? Um, so the customer is more increasingly Chinese. The candidate is increasingly Chinese, the investment opportunity, and that's before you wanna invest the business directly into China, right?
[35:23] Peter: So I take the Chinese case as an example. We could speak about others. But from a TA and from a business or a people strategy point of view, we need to think about how we deploy that strategy to become a beneficiary of it, not a victim of it, and the same is true of Emiratisation. Yeah. Not to mention the fact that we are in, uh, the Emirates.
[35:45] Peter: The Emirates is good to us, and we will do right by the Emirates in pushing and investing in Emiratisation for sure.
[35:53] Simmi: Yes, yes. Very, very well articulated, Peter. I agree. In fact, why only Emiratisation? Saudisation as well. I mean, I think we both have seen Saudi as a country evolving and the talent of Saudi nationals evolving.
[36:09] Simmi: Um, I would bet on the local talent even in Saudi as a country any day, um, as I meet more and more of those I
[36:23] Peter: think that can be a myth, right? And, you know, that is a myth which is ready to be busted. Um, we see excellent potential and talent through these local communities and the local nationals for sure, right.
[36:32] Peter: And again, we could spend the next half an hour on that topic, but
[36:37] Simmi: Speaking of
[36:38] Peter: it, yes... the final — I just wanna make one final point here, Simmy, and that is, you know, we must look at the profile of organizations and, yes, we bring a lot of this talent in at the lower end, at the more junior end, right, with the hope of developing that talent through the business.
[36:51] Peter: We need to find ways to insert them higher in the hierarchy with a view to developing that talent for the most senior roles more universally, I think.
[37:02] Simmi: And I think that's what organizations are saying, that it's not about getting my localization numbers, it's about having the conversation of localization, AI transformation, and leadership succession as a connected conversation.
[37:16] Peter: Absolutely...
[37:17] Simmi: It's not you know, separate KPIs or separate goals that I want to achieve. Amazing, great. Uh, Peter, I'm gonna rush a bit because I want to keep few minutes for the question and answers. Mm, let's maybe one story from last two months from you on, on, you know, what the world, like a real story on what the world is missing about GCC.
[37:41] Simmi: And while you speak on that story, I'm gonna start scanning the comments to see what question can we pick up post your story. Please go ahead.
[37:50] Peter: Look, um, I think, um, leadership is the key here, right? You know, if you ask — I speak for my... I'm a European and a Brit. Yes...
[38:00] Peter: If I speak to my country folk, um, I think we'll find a, uh, a sense of frustration about leadership and continuity of leadership, and dare I say even quality of leadership, without getting too political about it, right? Um, and what the kind of electoral and political system is really capable of in, in my part of the world, right?
[38:21] Peter: Here...
[38:21] Simmi: Yes...
[38:22] Peter: we have continuity of leadership. We have long-term outlook. Um, and that is something which is not well understood by different cultures, and I think some people from those cultures would do well to come and take a closer look at how that can be beneficial in different contexts.
[38:41] Peter: So I think leadership is a key part of it, right? And I guess just the fact that even through the conflict, even in the midst of the conflict, this region's still head and shoulders above many other regions in terms of safety, quality of life, security, um, you know, safety of your investments, all that stuff, right?
[39:00] Peter: Um, you know, we don't know what the bump in the road will be tomorrow in Europe or North America or the GCC. Um, who would I bet on to weather that storm? I would bet on this region for sure.
[39:18] Simmi: Yeah. It's a VUCA world. In fact, I posted on my LinkedIn during the war, um, after first two, three days of the war where we were figuring out, I saw people leaving the country and so much was happening and then we saw the leadership of the country coming out into Dubai Mall, having a coffee, no speeches, no messages.
[39:40] Simmi: Just a clear message that I am here, we are here, you are safe, and you're gonna be fine. I thought that in itself said a lot about the leadership that we have in this country. And yes, I can't agree more to you, Peter, that the outside world has to... uh, I hope they can understand and feel how the psychological safety of what we have in here. Great. Thank you so much. Um, thank you everyone for listening. I will, uh, I'm looking at the questions right now. I'm gonna just pick up first, uh, one or two questions that I see. Uh, I see lot of comments in there, but okay, let's pick up this one and then we will see if we have time for one more.
[40:29] Simmi: Otherwise, we will definitely reply to those later in the day. Um, in the region as diverse and fast evolving as GCC,
Q&A: Build vs. Buy Talent Strategy
[40:36] Simmi: do you believe the future of talent strategy lies more in building adaptable internal capability ecosystems or in continuously accessing external specialized talent as business priorities are shifting?
[40:50] Simmi: It's a question from Payal.
[40:51] Peter: Oh, I love that question.
[40:53] Simmi: Yes.
[40:53] Peter: I love that.
[40:54] Simmi: So you go first and then I'll add on, Peter.
[40:58] Peter: Look, um, Don't invest in your people at your peril would be my advice to any leadership team in an organization. Why? Because of course when we invest in our people they're of greater value to us.
[41:11] Peter: They give us more, they give us what we need. They also stay longer, they're more loyal. They'll travel more extra miles with you. Okay? That becomes then part of your value proposition. Today, candidates looking at the business, senior and very early career, are interested in what is the development opportunity, what the programs, processes, frameworks that exist within an organization.
[41:38] Peter: Um, and it's very difficult to fake it, to say things that aren't true in that space. Um, and your people will speak for themselves, right? And another interesting — I don't know if this is super relevant maybe — is that there's a company out there called Weliba, and they did a piece of research which linked employee experience, which includes things like development, actually to stock price.
[42:01] Peter: So as employee experience, um, or employee engagement went up, for listed companies stock prices also went up. Um, that's a very interesting piece of research that they did, right? So miss it at your peril would be my advice. Um, and when, as we break down the workforce into a more sort of skills organization, we then have the opportunity to redeploy skills across, which is good.
[42:24] Peter: Um, there must always be a build and buy strategy. Um, and we always need to be looking on the outside for new skills, um, and new opportunities. So both are important.
[42:35] Simmi: You know, to build and buy, we used to have build, buy, borrow, uh, related to the question, and now we have a fourth B in it, which is the bot.
[42:46] Simmi: So it's build, buy, borrow, bot that has come into internal discussions. Uh, but yes, Peter, nothing to add on, but if I have to summarize what you said, um, more capability dense, smaller teams, higher skill intensity. Um, organizations need to adapt and yes, hiring a larger workforce is not the solution, definitely.
[43:13] Peter: If I may, may make one final point on this one, Simi. Yes, yes. I think, you know, there is a myth that there is a massive skill shortage in this region, and of course there are some areas that are tighter than others, but there's still a massive net inflow of talent into this region, not just UAE, but into this region.
[43:30] Peter: Um, and you know, we shouldn't forget that, right? Now that's a good thing because talent can be readily available and is motivated to come. Um, this also presents challenges because it, you know, it's impacting things like static wages and things like that, right? Which are things we need to take into consideration when we think about how attractive the region is.
[43:47] Simmi: Yes, yes. And I feel the labor laws of the region are adapting very quickly. We are talking pay transparency. I mean, 16 years back when I used to do pay work as a HR consultant, organizations were worried about sharing their payrolls with us as consultants and from there to today discussing coming in the labor laws, pay transparency, I think the region is adapting with the organizations.
[44:15] Simmi: Uh, great. We have exceeded our time. Um, I will put the summary of the sessions and some key learnings in the chat, or we'll mail them to you tomorrow for your reflections. Thank you so much for your time. I hope it was helpful, getting a perspective, and provoked some new thinking.
[44:40] Simmi: Um, and yes, happy to hear feedback from you all. Please reach out. Peter and I, you can reach out to us on our LinkedIn. Um, thank you so much. Peter, last words from you.
[44:54] Peter: Just a massive thank you, uh, for the invite to you, Simi. Um, and thank you to all who attended. As Simi said, the invitation is open to all.
[45:02] Peter: Feel free to reach out and continue the conversation. Thanks for making the investment of time to come and visit us today, and hope to speak to you all again soon. Thank you very much.
[45:10] Simmi: Thank you all. See you. Have a good afternoon. Bye-bye.
[45:14] Peter: Thanks. Bye.
Peter Hogg Group Head of Talent Acquisition · Company Al-Futtaim